New and trying to learn things

[Jim]

Hi, I'm new here and am considering purchasing some wireless CCTV cameras. As far as my current security needs I have good visibility at the front of my house and nothing growing around windows high enough to hide behind. The windows are sturdy double insulated and I have double locks in front. The rear door however is a sliding door and because the sliding part is outside I can't block it. Fortunately most of the time someone is in the house and being two storeys and semi-detached helps limit access.

My biggest threat is from yobs who throw things at the house trying to break windows or lobbing eggs. I haven't had any run-ins with any neighbours but since we're on a corner lot with a large open park across the street my house is an easy target hence the desire for CCTV. Also they have started several fires in the park in the last week or two.

What I'm concerned about is violating privacy laws. It would do little good to only have them watching my property if I can't angle them to also take in and detect motion in the park area where most of the problems come from. The cameras I'm looking at are infra-red nightvision as well as daylight though to see someone in the park at 50 metres would probably require an additional infra-red floodlight.

If I get these cameras would I be able to angle them mostly at my own garden areas yet also legally take in an area showing the park? Also they would invariably take in a limited overlap view of neighbouring gardens though couldn't see into any windows due to the house's angles. And if I record any crime would it be admissable for prosecution since the park is public? I've had a hell of a time trying to get some common-sense answers to these simple questions from government sources. I don't want to openly violate the privacy act.

Any input would be helpful, thanks

[iStorm]

Hi Jim, Where to start, lol, You will find getting a camera with 50m I.R will be easy enough, however what you have to bare in mind is that at that distance you will be looking at a spot, not an area. I take it you are looking at useing a DVR or a P.C with capture cards and software, I have found in the past that canvassing your neighbours, escpecialy if there are problems explain to them that you are thinking of installing some camera's and ask there permission, I did this on my last house and they where extemely happy that there garden area would be covered! You will need the images to have a Time & Date stamp for them to be admissable as evidence in court, One last thought, why do the camera's need to be 50m? Sureley if they are throwing things at your house they will need to be closer than 50m? Lastley put up some signs warning that cctv is in oppearation! Hope some of this helps.

[Jim]

The problem I have is that there is a fence between the housing estate and the park area (see the image). I can get a good view over the fence from the only upstairs window on the side. They tend to throw things from there, normally small stones or eggs since larger stones would require they be in close view. It isn't personal, just we're easy targets so its more opportunistic. Fortunately we have few windows on that side to damage. I worry about the fires as well since the same area had some of the miscreants build a minor bonfire there two nights ago.

http://surplusparts.googlepages.com/house2.jpg

Thanks Iain

[Jim]

Thanks Iain. I thought I had replied earlier but it doesn't seem to have taken.

I may have to get something with a little bit of telephoto capabilities. I know that in many cases, especially under low-light conditions, the images may not be very usable for definite identification purposes, but if they were combined then the cameras would give a good overall view since in many cases even those who throw things from that side also walk past my house to get there.

The cameras I was looking at are on Ebay. There's a set of four including the four channel receiver. I have a video card capable of video input so can use the receiver to either give me a working image on my television or run it through the PC. Maybe what I could do once I try setting them up is see how much overlap I have then let the neighbours know. Most of the extraneous area will be the public park to my east. On the south is a school and I will have to be careful with that area since there are a lot of young kids.

I've only lived in the UK a few years and the laws seem to spend more time protecting the rights of the yobs than the victims. Where I'm from throwing stuff at houses is likely to get you shot at. Here they allow few legal alternatives to defend yourself except call 999 and beg for mercy.

My other alternative methods I've looked over are webcam based. A good Logitech sphere cam would give nice daytime images but night viewing would suffer and that's when I need it most.

Here's an image of the layout. The same area they throw from is where they have been starting fires also.
http://surplusparts.googlepages.com/house2.jpg

[Jim]

Posted replies days ago but they haven't been cleared yet. Maybe it's because I put in a photo link? It was just a Google Earth image of my house location showing the fence and park area they usually hide behind.

Yes, 50 metres is more than enough probably and I know that the images would be difficult to discern a positive ID. But in most cases those who cause trouble around here are from a housing estate 500 metres to the West. They have to pass my house at a fairly close range before getting to the area in which case multiple cameras can see them going past my front yard either to or from the estate as well as during any misbehaviour.


Most of my neighbours probably won't mind. I don't intend on overlooking their rear gardens or windows. I do need to be wary of showing the area directly across the street as this is a primary school and they do frown upon people taking images or videos of kids at school. I think I can angle or mask the front camera well enough to avoid any problems.

Thanks for the suggestions Iain. Hopefully without any links this post will go through as quick my first two.

[COL]

Hi, firstly, I agree with Iains previous post. Re; DPA - the act normally excludes domestic CCTV systems but obviously depending on location, care should be exercised ie; if the premises are beside government buildings, schools etc. I'll copy and paste our FAQ on the DPA & CCTV at the end of this message.
With regard to camera choice, as Iain has pointed out, integrated IR cameras give out a "torchbeam" of IR light so, at a 50m distance you would be using a reasonably large length to aquire images capable of proving identification - this also means your viewing area is dramatically reduced - this is fine if you are covering distinct areas but in reality it sounds like you need rto cover a wider area. Using a wider angle lens will cover a larger area but will make any recordings of incidents 50m away indistinct from the point of view of providing identification. As such the best idea would be to use a good Varifocal IR camera which will allow you to adjust the lens to suit. IR illuminators are also a good idea to give the camera additional IR to work with and they are now relatively inexpensive.
I was going to add a link to a lens guide but that would delay the posting so PM me and I'll send it direct to you - basically a series of images with different lens lengths at different distances which should give you a better idea of the ideal lens length to suit your environment.
Hope this has been a bit of help, DPA info below.
Cheers
Jim
One of the most commonly asked questions regarding CCTV is what are the legal ramifications of installing a system. Most people have heard of the DATA protection Act with regard to the holding of information on individuals but may be unaware that the Act also covers the recording of video images.
It should be stressed at this point, that despite misinformation to the contrary, the DPA is not designed to prevent the legitimate recording of video images for the purpose of crime prevention and safety, in fact CCTV installed on domestic premises is normally exempt from the Act. With regard to the covert recording of an area to prevent criminal activity, exceptions are in place to negate the requirement of signage informing an individual that recording is in operation
Listed below is a brief synopsis of the Act with regard to CCTV recording along with useful links to the relevant Government sites.

All installed CCTV systems that have the ability to record video information, with the exception of those on domestic property, are subject to the terms of the Data Protection Act 1998.
The rules state that anyone processing personal data must comply with the eight enforceable principles of good practice. They state that any gathered data must be:-
-Fairly and lawfully processed.
-Processed for limited purposes.
-Adequate, relevant and not excessive.
-Accurate.
-Not retained for longer than is necessary.
-Processed in accordance with the rights of the data subject.
-Secure.
-Not transferred to countries without adequate protection.
A CCTV System must be notified to the Information Commissioner if it meets the following criteria:-
-Does the system collect data?
-Can the data collected be classed as personal data about a particular individual, who can be identified with or without the information?
-Can the system automatically process the recordings to show a specific time-period?
Failure to register a system that meets the criteria laid down above is a criminal offence.
For the information recorded by a CCTV system to be admissible as evidence then it must be collected legally. This means that the system must comply with the Act and so people must be warned that CCTV is in operation. An exception to this can be made for covert surveillance being used to try to stop a specific criminal activity involving specific individuals.
One effect of the law is that it requires that the information gathered by a system cannot be used for any other purposes other than for that it was originally designed, for example: you cannot sell the videos for entertainment purposes.
Other implications of the Act are :- Recordings must be protected against unauthorised access.
Systems must be designed such that they only record relevant images. Therefore the fields of view of cameras must be set up correctly to ensure that they do not include unnecessary details or intrude into the privacy of any neighbouring areas
Information stored on recordings must be 'accurate'. In practical terms this means that all CCTV systems must be correctly configured and maintained, with older analogue systems this requires a program of VCR maintenance and tape replacement to be in place.
Recordings should not be kept for longer than necessary to fulfill the needs of the system.
People have the right to prevent recording their images being recorded. This is normally and achieved by the use of warning signs advising people that if they enter the area beyond their images will be recorded.
People also have the right to request access to recorded images of themselves. Warning signs must give details of who is responsible for the administration of the CCTV system and/or who to contact to request copies of the recorded information.
Due to several recent court cases, the accepted definition of what is termed as personal information with regard to the Act has become more defined. This has resulted in many CCTV systems which were previously subject to the full requirements of the Act being now largely exempt. Significantly, this is the case for CCTV systems using a small number of cameras to record general area views such as in a shop.
Further details of the Requirements of the Data Protection Act 1998 and the Codes of Practice for operating CCTV Systems in a compliant manner along with details of any changes brought about by the recent court cases are available online at the infomation commissioners web site.
Please note that to prevent any infringement of European Human Rights Legislation CCTV Systems should only cover areas of your property.

[brian]

Terribly sorry about that Jim and Ian - it looks like the links were setting off false positives on the anti-spam scripts the forum is running.

I'll get the posts on this thread mended, and then go tweak the anti-spam scripts to be a little less aggressive!

[iStorm]

Hi Jim, Its very hard to advise of the best equpiment to use without seeing the situation first hand, If they have to walk past your property at a range that is verifieable, why not install a covert camera somewhere, set to record on video activation, with the correct compresion rates you should have plent of hard drive space, then im sure that if there seen walking past at close range, then later seen on a different cam (But wearing the same clothes) Throwing eggs etc, i would of thought the police would be having a word!
Its desgusting whats happening to you jim, but unfortunatley the sociaty we live in and my choice of work i see alot of it, if you want to call me jim visit the site and drop me a line, dependent on where you lived and if we had an agreement on costs been coverd i dont mind visiting and advising acordingly.

[Jim]

Just a little follow-up on this situation and thanks for everyone's suggestions.

When I got the LED floods they did put out a spot beam so that the centre was brightly lit at a long distance. I bought a diffuser panel (the kind with little raised prisms) intended for fluorescent lights and cut it to fit my flood lights. It made a big difference in the foreground area illuminated and spread the beam out over a much wider range. There were wide angle floods available but at a much higher price.

The cameras are now hard wired and I will link some snapshots later on.

Thanks again folks